WEBVTT 00:00:08.922 --> 00:00:13.326 Participation in work 00:00:13.456 --> 00:00:21.291 What opportunities for participation do people with profound intellectual and multiple disabilities currently have? 00:00:21.378 --> 00:00:23.358 In many cases, they are unable to do so, 00:00:25.442 --> 00:00:27.002 perhaps even in most cases, frequently. 00:00:27,002 If they can, it's by chance, 00:00:28,782 because they are in the right place at the right time, 00:00:30.802 --> 00:00:32.942 in the right institution. 00:00:32.942 --> 00:00:37.182 They can certainly participate in some workshops 00:00:37.182 --> 00:00:40.142 for disabled people in the special labor market, 00:00:40.142 --> 00:00:42.882 but by no means in all of them. 00:00:42.882 --> 00:00:46.922 They can sometimes do this in day care centers. 00:00:46.922 --> 00:00:51. 402 In very few day care centers, 00:00:51.402 --> 00:00:53.362 they can do this outside the special system. 00:00:53.474 --> 00:00:55.574 But this is very rare. 00:00:55.574 --> 00:00:58.414 That depends very much on chance, 00:00:58.414 --> 00:01:00.994 on the commitment of the specialists, 00:01:00.994 --> 00:01:04.114 on the specialists' ability 00:01:04.114 --> 00:01:08.414 recognizing strengths, recognizing resources, observing closely 00:01:08.414 --> 00:01:13.254 and, above all, on the courage of the professionals 00: 01:13.254 --> 00:01:14.554 and perhaps also the institutions, 00:01:14.554 --> 00:01:15.454 to simply do so. 00:01:15.454 --> 00:01:17.514 But whether they can or not 00:01:17.514 --> 00:01:20.974 depends on chance. 00:01:20.974 --> 00:01:28.345 What can be understood by the term “work” for people with profound intellectual and multiple disabilities? 00:01:28.354 --> 00:01:30.374 I can think of two approaches. 00:01:30.374 --> 00:01:33.114 First, an anthropological approach, 00:01:33.114 --> 00:01:35.274 that the term work 00:01:35.274 --> 00:01:39.334 is considered independently of any economic system. 00:01:39.334 --> 00:01:43.334 Maria Hoda once said, in essence, 00:01:43.334 --> 00:01:46.394 that working is the innermost core of being alive, 00:01:46,394 - -> 00:01:49,074 in other words, work as a fundamental human activity. 00:01:49.074 --> 00:01:51.394 That would be one approach. 00:01:51.394 --> 00:01:54.474 I also find another approach helpful, 00:01: 54.474 --> 00:01:55.674 sociological approach, 00:01:55.674 --> 00:01:58.038 in which you don't use the term work, 00:01:58.038 --> 00:01:59.018 but instead say 00:01:59.018 --> 00:02:00.878 it is about participation in working life. 00:02:00.878 --> 00:02:03.438 Working life as an important 00:02:03.438 --> 00:02:05.298 social sphere in this society. 00: 02:05.298 --> 00:02:08.018 There are many social fields. 00:02:08.018 --> 00:02:09.118 Some are important, 00:02:09.118 --> 00:02:11.698 some are not so important, 00:02:11.698 --> 00:02:12.998 if I can't participate in them. 00:02:12.998 --> 00:02:14.598 But work, working life, I believe, 00:02:14.598 --> 00:02:18.098 is the central social sphere. 00:02:18.098 --> 00:02:22.238 And then it's about participating in it. 00:02:22.238 --> 00:02:23.898 To do that, I don't necessarily have to 00:02:25.570 --> 00:02:28.450 be able to work in an economically viable sense. 00:02:28.450 --> 00:02:30.430 I can also participate in social systems 00:02:30.430 --> 00:02:32.110 even if I can't do everything perfectly. 00:02:32.110 --> 00:02:33.650 Nevertheless, I am allowed to participate. 00:02:33.650 --> 00:02:34.450 And I think that's why 00:02:34.450 --> 00:02:39.890 it helps a little to understand 00:02:39.890 --> 00:02:42.470 why people participate in work. 00:02:42.470 --> 00:02:44.310 They don't have to work, 00:02:44.310 --> 00:02:45.070 like everyone else, 00:02:45.070 --> 00:02:46.990 but they should be able to participate in this social system, 00:02:46.990 --> 00:02:49.650 in this social subsystem. 00:02:49.650 --> 00:02:51.250 That's what it's all about, I think. 00:02:53.126 --> 00:03:00.770 Why is work important for people with profound intellectual and multiple disabilities? 00:03:01.250 --> 00:03:04.230 Work is important for the same reasons 00:03:04.230 --> 00:03:05.890 as it is for all people. 00:03:05,890 Work provides a time structure, That is, work provides a structure for time, 00:03:08.530 --> 00:03:11.490 offers the opportunity to socialize, 00:03:11.490 --> 00:03:12.270 even with people 00:03:12.270 --> 00:03:15.830 I didn't choose to be with. 00:03:15.830 --> 00:03:18.890 Work offers the opportunity to 00:03:18.890 --> 00:03:20.910 come into contact with society 00:03:20.910 --> 00:03:22.170 and many other reasons. 00:03:22.170 --> 00:03:23.370 So basically, first of all, 00:03:23.370 --> 00:03:25.470 what applies to all people. 00:03:28.802 --> 00:03:30.782 Work also offers opportunities, 00:03:30.782 --> 00:03:35.682 or participation in working life offers opportunities, 00: 03:35.682 --> 00:03:39.622 to gain experience 00:03:39.622 --> 00:03:42.122 that goes far beyond 00:03:42.122 --> 00:03:44.722 what we could do within our special institution. 00:03:44.722 --> 00:03:46.382 This example 00:03:47.138 --> 00:03:49.718 I can perhaps emphasize this, 00:03:49.718 --> 00:03:50.658 we have a young man here 00:03:50.658 --> 00:03:53.518 who is very interested in plastic wrap, 00:03:53.518 --> 00:03:54.598 this transparent film, 00:03:54.598 --> 00:03:55.978 which he loves to manipulate. 00:03:56.018 --> 00:04:00.598 And of course, here in the facility, 00:04:00.598 --> 00:04:01.918 in the relaxation room, 00:04:01,918 - -> 00:04:04,518 attach this slide to the wall 00:04:04.518 --> 00:04:05.598 and introduce the man there 00:04:05.598 --> 00:04:07.238 and then he can manipulate it, 00:04:07.238 --> 00:04:08.518 then he has this sensory impression. 00:04:08.518 --> 00:04:09.938 But you can also do what we do, 00:04:09.938 --> 00:04:11.818 go to a flower shop, 00:04:11.818 --> 00:04:14.018 where a lot of this foil is produced 00:04:14.018 --> 00:04:18.690 and then he collects this foil 00:04:18.690 --> 00:04:20.390 and holds it firmly on his wheelchair table, 00:04:20.390 --> 00:04:22.050 can manipulate it 00:04:22.050 --> 00:04:24.750 and then even takes it to the container, 00:04:24.750 --> 00:04:26.750 00:04:24.750 --> 00:04:25.750 where he then throws them in. 00:04:25.750 --> 00:04:27.190 He pulls himself up on this container, 00:04:27.190 --> 00:04:28.650 gets into the stretch. 00:04:28.650 --> 00:04:30.710 That's also something we have here in a 00:04:30.710 --> 00:04:33.110 special facility with a standing frame 00:04:33.110 --> 00:04:36.130 otherwise. 00:04:36.130 --> 00:04:38.950 And then he throws this plastic sheet into this 00:04:38.950 --> 00:04:41.290 container and deals with it, 00:04:41.290 --> 00:04:43.630 and gains social recognition as a result. 00:04:43.630 --> 00:04:46.872 The praise of the florists, 00:04:46.872 --> 00:04:50.092 is therefore visible in the world in a completely different way. 00:04:50.092 --> 00:04:53.312 We also notice this in many other examples. 00:04:53,312 Together with our employees, we distribute a large number of flyers 00:04:59,072 in our area for church congregations 00:05:01.612 --> 00:05:03.292 and other institutions. 00:05:03.292 --> 00:05:04.992 And people perceive it very differently 00:05:04.992 --> 00:05:07.772 than when you're just going for a walk. 00:05:07.772 --> 00:05:11. 874 Although at first glance it looks similar 00:05:11.874 --> 00:05:13.614 and has the same effects. 00:05:13.614 --> 00:05:15.054 But whether it's the caregivers , 00:05:15.054 --> 00:05:16.254 who are out walking with their disabled people 00:05:16.254 --> 00:05:17.854 or whether it's the people 00:05:17.854 --> 00:05:19.834 who put the parish newsletter in our mailbox, 00:05:19.834 --> 00:05:22.174 that's a different perception. 00:05:22.174 --> 00:05:25.294 So people are no longer invisible in working life through participation 00:05:25.294 --> 00:05:27.014 no longer invisible in working life. 00:05:27.014 --> 00:05:28.454 Monika Seifert once said that 00:05:28.454 --> 00:05:30.654 that this is an invisible group of people 00:05:30.654 --> 00:05:32.154 and that this makes them visible. 00:05:33.070 --> 00:05:40.626 What approaches to participation in work already exist for people with profound intellectual and multiple disabilities? 00:05:40.706 --> 00:05:42.126 There are a few institutions 00:05:42.126 --> 00:05:43.766 that simply do this. 00:05:43.810 --> 00:05:47.426 And they also differ 00:05:47.426 --> 00:05:48.746 very much according to the general conditions. 00:05:48.746 --> 00:05:52.406 There are large institutions, 00:05:52,406 - -> 00:05:55,606 we call complex facilities. 00:05:55.606 --> 00:05:59.686 I have one facility in mind, 00:05:59.686 --> 00:06:02.306 where about 1,000 people with disabilities live, 00:06:02.946 --> 00:06:06.846 in a village where 200 other people live. 00:06:06.846 --> 00:06:08.646 There isn't much in the way of working life there, 00:06:08.646 --> 00:06:11.326 where I can go. 00:06:11.326 --> 00:06:14.066 They have to do that within their institution. 00:06:14.066 --> 00:06:16.426 You bring the secretary a pretzel. 00:06:16.426 --> 00:06:18.626 And that's participating in working life. 00:06:18.626 --> 00:06:20.486 If, as in Bremen, 00:06:20.486 --> 00:06:21.486 I live in a big city, 00:06:21.486 --> 00:06:22.826 I have other options. 00:06:22.826 --> 00:06:24.246 That varies. 00:06:24.246 --> 00:06:26.302 What these approaches have in common, I think, 00:06:26.302 --> 00:06:28.662 is that you just do it, 00:06:28.662 --> 00:06:30.522 that you just try it out. 00:06:30.522 --> 00:06:33.162 I think it's important to have a basic understanding, 00:06:33.162 --> 00:06:36.162 a basic attitude, namely the attitude of participation 00:06:36.162 --> 00:06:40.282 and not care or participation and not support. 00:06:41.186 --> 00:06:43.606 I think it is also important for us 00:06:43.606 --> 00:06:46.126 to take a person-centered approach, 00:06:46.126 --> 00:06:48.366 the person-centered concept according to Pörtner, 00:06:48.366 --> 00:06:50.766 which helps us a lot. 00:06:50.766 --> 00:06:54.006 But approaches where you can say, 00:06:54.006 --> 00:06:56.026 I'll look in the manual to see how it works, 00:06:56.026 --> 00:06:56.846 I don't think that works. 00:06:56.846 --> 00:06:58.526 You just have to develop the attitude 00:06:58.526 --> 00:06:59.826 and then you have to see 00:06:59.826 --> 00:07:02.066 what is possible in my environment, within my means. 00:07:02.066 --> 00:07:06.426 The idea of social space orientation is helpful, 00:07:06.426 --> 00:07:09.046 which is slowly, at least 00:07:10.210 - -> 00:07:12,450 the concept is gradually finding its way into disability services. 00:07:12.450 --> 00:07:14.330 In other areas of social work 00:07:14.330 --> 00:07:16.190. the realization has been around for a little longer 00:07:16.190 --> 00:07:17.470 that 00:07:17.470 --> 00:07:18.910 that it is not particularly helpful 00:07:18.910 --> 00:07:20.590 to just tinker with the client, 00:07:20.590 --> 00:07:23.010 but to look at the environment. 00:07:23.010 --> 00:07:25.370 That's still a bit difficult for us in disability care 00:07:25.370 --> 00:07:26.110 because we are very focused on the needs of the individual 00:07:26.110 --> 00:07:29.910 because we are very focused on the needs 00:07:29.910 --> 00:07:31.030 and the support needs 00:07:31.030 --> 00:07:33.910 of people with disabilities. 00:07:34.562 --> 00:07:36.922 But that is certainly an attitude 00:07:36.922 --> 00:07:39.442 that must slowly find its way 00:07:39.442 --> 00:07:42.242 and which also brings about 00:07:42.242 --> 00:07:45.562 a change in attitude among professionals. 00:07:46.169 --> 00:07:55.550 You take the position that participation can only take place outside of special institutions. What does that mean? 00:07:55.970 --> 00:07:58.530 Inclusion is a joint activity 00:07:58.530 --> 00:08:01.470 on a common subject involving disabled 00:08:01.470 --> 00:08:02.570 and non-disabled people 00:08:02.570 --> 00:08:06.250 in the normal social spheres 00:08:06.250 --> 00:08:08.430 and not in special systems. 00:08:08.430 --> 00:08:09.350 That is inclusion. 00:08:09.350 --> 00:08:15.870 And that has a huge impact on people. 00:08:15.870 --> 00:08:17.150 You can see very clearly 00:08:17.150 --> 00:08:19.030 that this also brings about changes 00:08:19.030 --> 00:08:20.310 in people with disabilities. 00:08:21.346 --> 00:08:22.466 Here's an example of that. 00:08:22.466 --> 00:08:25.986 We have a bike shop in the area here, 00:08:25.986 --> 00:08:29.266 where we tear up large cardboard boxes 00:08:29.266 --> 00:08:32.145 so that they fit into containers. 00:08:33.570 --> 00:08:34.230 They are delivered to us 00:08:34.230 --> 00:08:35.890 before we arrive or even when we are there, 00:08:35.890 --> 00:08:38.190 they are prepared for us by the bicycle mechanics. 00:08:38.190 --> 00:08:38.669 They will then come, 00:08:38.669 --> 00:08:42.070 greet us and bring us these containers. 00:08:42.070 --> 00:08:44.150 And then we do that. 00:08:44.150 --> 00:08:46.190 And when we're done, 00:08: 46.190 --> 00:08:47.410 then it often happens 00:08:47,410 - -> 00:08:49,630 that these bicycle mechanics or one of them 00:08:49.630 --> 00:08:51.890 have another cup of coffee with the employees 00:08:51.890 --> 00:08:53.110 who work there. 00:08:53.110 --> 00:08:55.710 And this is 00:08:55.710 --> 00:08:57.930 very much enjoyed and appreciated by everyone present. 00:08:57.930 --> 00:08:59.950 This is quite different from 00:08:59.950 --> 00:09:01.190 the cup of coffee in the break room, 00:09:01.190 --> 00:09:02.152 that we make. Maybe drink, 00:09:02.152 --> 00:09:04.192 even though it might be the same coffee. 00:09:04.192 --> 00:09:06.472 So that's inclusion, 00:09:06.472 --> 00: 09:08.652 acting together and contact 00:09:08.652 --> 00:09:11.292 in normal social settings 00:09:11.292 --> 00:09:13.072 and not in special facilities. 00:09:13.741 --> 00:09:21.577 Can participation in work in the social environment be a solution for all people with profound intellectual and multiple disabilities? 00:09:22.882 --> 00:09:24.082 Well, when it comes to solutions for everyone 00:09:24.082 --> 00:09:25.522 I'm always a little cautious, 00:09:25.522 --> 00:09:27.242 because I don't think they can actually 00:09:27.242 --> 00:09:28.682 exist. 00:09:28.682 --> 00:09:31.882 But I can't really think of any alternatives, 00:09:31.882 --> 00:09:32.582 I have to admit. 00:09:32.582 --> 00:09:33.962 So, an alternative might be 00:09:33.962 --> 00:09:36.202 to create a new offer, 00:09:36.202 --> 00:09:37.562 a redesign. 00:09:37.562 --> 00:09:40.262 I find that very difficult to imagine at the moment, 00:09:40.262 --> 00:09:43.342 because there is no legal framework 00:09:43.342 --> 00:09:44.742 and the foundations for it. 00:09:44.742 --> 00:09:47.202 Participation in working life 00:09:47.202 --> 00:09:48.662 for people with high support needs, 00:09:48.662 --> 00:09:49.582 such a new foundation. 00:09:49.794 --> 00:09:51.034 To establish institutions 00:09:51.034 --> 00:09:51.934 that have this task, 00:09:51.934 --> 00:09:54.374 because that's not really possible. 00:09:54.374 --> 00:09:58.494 I believe that the way forward is really 00:09:58.494 --> 00:09:59.814 that facilities such as 00:09:59.814 --> 00:10:02.774 day care centers or day care facilities 00:10:02.774 --> 00:10:07.694 need to change and evolve 00:10:07.694 --> 00:10:09.634 from what they have done so far, 00:10:09.634 --> 00:10:11.474 in order to justify and substantiate their existence in the long term 00:10:11.474 --> 00:10:13.194 justify and substantiate their existence in the long term. 00:10:13.194 --> 00:10:16.174 Well, I don't know of any alternative. 00:10:16.174 --> 00:10:17.534 If there were, that would be great. 00:10:17.534 --> 00:10:26.338 What can professionals do to support people with profound intellectual and multiple disabilities in participating in work? 00:10:26.882 --> 00:10:28.242 They just have to do it. 00:10:28.242 --> 00:10:30.162 I think that's the most important thing. 00:10:30.162 --> 00:10:31.822 They have to take the risk. 00:10:31.822 --> 00:10:33.262 You're not risking anything, 00:10:33.262 --> 00:10:35.162 but you just have to do it, 00:10:35.162 --> 00:10:37.402 dare to take the step. 00:10:37.402 --> 00:10:39.382 See where the resources are. 00:10:39.382 --> 00:10:40.762 You have to recognize the resources 00:10:40.762 --> 00:10:42.402 among people with disabilities, of course, 00:10:42.402 --> 00:10:44.142 but also the resources in the social space, 00:10:44.142 --> 00:10:46.322 in their environment. 00:10:46.322 --> 00:10:48.742 They often have to mediate. 00:10:48.742 --> 00:10:49.982 We often experience this. We experience this frequently. 00:10:49.982 --> 00:10:52.562 We have to mediate, we have to translate. 00:10:55.138 --> 00:10:55.938 The point is also 00:10:55.938 --> 00:10:57.678 that you have to get used to 00:10:57.678 --> 00:10:58.898 working in public. 00:10:58.898 --> 00:11:00.578 We're not used to that. 00:11:00.578 --> 00:11:01.918 In our facilities, 00:11:01.918 --> 00:11:04.138 no one sees what I'm doing. 00:11:04.138 --> 00:11:05.138 My colleagues see it, 00:11:05.138 --> 00:11:06.118 but they know what's going on. 00:11:06.118 --> 00:11:08.018 But when I work outside, 00:11:08.018 --> 00:11:09.918 everyone can see what I'm doing. 00:11:09.918 --> 00:11:12.658 That's not easy for some people. 00:11:14,690 You have to be careful 00:11:15.470 --> 00:11:16.710 that you don't let yourself be 00:11:16.710 --> 00:11:18.610 sucked into a performance mindset. 00:11:18.610 --> 00:11:19.510 It's not about 00:11:19.510 --> 00:11:21.070 getting as much done as possible, 00:11:21.070 --> 00:11:22.010 but about 00:11:22.010 --> 00:11:23.850 organizing participation. 00:11:23.850 --> 00:11:25.630 It's easy to get to the point 00:11:25,630 where, as an employee, you just do it quickly 00:11:27,390 because it takes far too long. 00:11:28.910 --> 00:11:30.290 But that's not the point. 00:11:30.290 --> 00:11:32.490 I have to make more of an effort 00:11:32.490 --> 00:11:34.150 establishing contact between disabled 00:11:34.150 --> 00:11:35.690 and non-disabled people. 00:11:37.250 --> 00:11:38.790 Employees must get used to 00:11:38.790 --> 00:11:41.290 thinking beyond the facility. 00:11:41.290 --> 00:11:43.890 For example, our employees have the task of 00:11:43.890 --> 00:11:46.350 being familiar with our environment. 00:11:46.350 --> 00:11:47.990 That's part of their job, 00: 11:47.990 --> 00:11:50.130 that they know what's in the area, 00:11:50.130 --> 00:11:52.330 where the nearest bakery is and who works there. 00:11:52.330 --> 00:11:56.470 And to make contacts, look for opportunities, 00:11:56.470 --> 00:11:58. 170 where is the niche, 00:11:58.170 --> 00:12:02.050 where I can work or where I can get involved. 00:12:02.050 --> 00:12:05.190 Our partners out there can usually do that. 00:12:05.232 --> 00:12:12.492 We recently received a request 00:12:12.492 --> 00:12:15.132 from a caretaker at a swimming pool, 00:12:15.132 --> 00:12:16.312 a large outdoor pool, 00:12:16.312 --> 00:12:18.392 who heard about us and said 00:12:18.392 --> 00:12:19.752 he has a large parking lot here, 00:12:19.752 --> 00:12:21.512 which needs to be kept clean. 00:12:21.512 --> 00:12:23.052 And we have to say, sorry, 00:12:23.052 --> 00:12:25.262 that's too big a job for us, 00:12:25.262 --> 00:12:25.942 we can't do it. 00:12:25.942 --> 00:12:28.082 But then we got in touch with him 00:12:28.082 --> 00:12:29.782 and our employees will then have to see 00:12:29.782 --> 00:12:31.862 if there's a small corner 00:12:31.862 --> 00:12:33.382 where we can do something. 00:12:33.382 --> 00:12:35.442 That little niche that's there, 00:12:35.442 --> 00:12:36.662 people don't see it, 00:12:36.662 --> 00:12:37.982 they think in terms of large processes. 00:12:37.982 --> 00:12:39.262 But we have to 00:12:39.262 --> 00:12:41.102 know these small procedures and processes, 00:12:41.102 --> 00:12:43.182 think our way into the operational processes, 00:12:43.182 --> 00:12:44.782 to see where the niche is, 00:12:44.782 --> 00:12:46.042 where we can get involved. 00:12:46.042 --> 00:12:48.102 That's a lot, 00:12:48.102 --> 00:12:49.222 but you can get into it. 00:12:49.222 --> 00:12:50.842 I think the important thing is 00:12:50.842 --> 00:12:53.002 to just start 00:12:53.890 --> 00:12:55.270 and leave the facility. 00:12:55.270 --> 00:13:03.862 Participation in work for people with profound intellectual and multiple disabilities – how will this area develop in the future? 00:13:03.874 --> 00:13:06.254 I believe that the topic of work is already finding its way more 00:13:06.254 --> 00:13:08.674 into people's minds 00:13:08.674 --> 00:13:11.074 and in the concepts of such institutions. 00:13:11.074 --> 00:13:12.754 This is by no means the case everywhere. 00:13:12.754 --> 00:13:15.014 But I do believe that it is more 00:13:15.014 --> 00:13:17.754 than it was at the time of the SITAS study, for example, 00:13:17.754 --> 00:13:19.534 that it has increased. 00:13:19.534 --> 00:13:21.494 I think it's important now 00:13:21.494 --> 00:13:22.614 to take the next step, 00:13:22.614 --> 00:13:24.174 to leave the institution 00:13:24.174 --> 00:13:25.894 and enter the real world of work. 00:13:26.562 --> 00:13:28.382 The legal basis for this 00:13:28.382 --> 00:13:29.902 will not change anytime soon. 00:13:29.902 --> 00:13:31.002 I have little hope in that regard. 00:13:31.002 --> 00:13:32.582 The Federal Participation Act 00:13:32.582 --> 00:13:34.942 is what it is, and that will remain largely unchanged. 00:13:34.942 --> 00:13:38.122 They have elegantly sidestepped this whole area, 00:13:38.122 --> 00:13:39.682 without changing anything. 00:13:39.682 --> 00:13:40.882 But I think 00:13:40.882 --> 00:13:42.922 that there is a lot of interest in this topic. 00:13:42.922 --> 00:13:46.562 There will be more facilities 00:13:46.562 --> 00:13:47.622 that show that it works. 00:13:48.322 --> 00:13:49.042 And I hope 00:13:49.042 --> 00:13:50.842 that when there are no longer just 10 in Germany, 00:13:50.842 --> 00:13:51.882 but perhaps 200, 00:13:51.882 --> 00:13:54.142 we will then have a different discussion. 00:13:54.142 --> 00:13:55.742 In the ministries, a different one 00:13:55.742 --> 00:13:57.682 and also a different one in the associations. 00:13:57.682 --> 00:14:02.022 The associations adopt fancy papers, 00:14:02.022 --> 00:14:04.862 but I don't think that gets through. 00:14:04.862 --> 00:14:05.982 Instead, I think it's important 00:14:05.982 --> 00:14:09.022 that something changes in the institutions. 00:14:09.022 --> 00:14:12.022 I do believe it's possible. 00:14:12.022 --> 00:14:14.202 Many such institutions 00:14:14.202 --> 00:14:16.042 such as daycare centers or support groups are realizing 00:14:16.042 --> 00:14:19.238 that their way of running such a facility 00:14:19.238 --> 00:14:21.658 is somehow no longer quite right, 00:14:21.658 --> 00:14:25.038 that it no longer really fits, 00:14:25.038 --> 00:14:25.878 but they don't know 00:14:25.878 --> 00:14:26.998 how they can change that, 00:14:26.998 --> 00:14:28.538 how to get out of it. 00:14:28.538 --> 00:14:32.538 There is certainly still a lot of training, 00:14:32.538 --> 00:14:34.718 support, and discussion needed, 00:14:34.718 --> 00:14:35.378 but I believe 00:14:35.378 --> 00:14:36.358 that this is the path 00:14:36.358 --> 00:14:37.478 we have to go.