WEBVTT 100:00:10,321 - -> 00:00:15,160 Participation in culture 200:00:15.200 --> 00:00:23.518 What does cultural participation mean for people with profound intellectual and multiple disabilities? 00:00:25.058 --> 00:00:27.798 In light of this question, I must 00:00:27.798 --> 00:00:29.278 take a step back 00:00:29.278 --> 00:00:33.258 and think about culture again, out loud. 00:00:33.258 --> 00:00:37.678 I know what is meant, 00:00:37.678 --> 00:00:39.818 but I would first like to 00:00:39.818 --> 00:00:40.658 make it clear once again 00:00:40.658 --> 00:00:43.258 that culture is actually much more than that. 00:00:43.362 --> 00:00:47.958 You could almost say that everything is culture, 00:00:47.958 --> 00:00:53.538 because I would like to understand culture as 00:00:55.330 --> 00:00:57.970 that which humans have created. 00:00:57.970 --> 00:01:02.330 And then, of course, there are all the ATLs 00:01:02.330 --> 00:01:03.070 that we mentioned, 00:01:03.070 --> 00:01:05.209 i.e. activities of daily living, 00:01:05.209 --> 00:01:09.070 which are cultural products. 00:01:09.070 --> 00:01:12.050 Brushing teeth, washing hands, 00:01:12.050 --> 00:01:15.310 putting on someone's diaper, 00:01:15.310 --> 00:01:18.030 preparing food, and so on and so forth. 00:01:18.030 --> 00:01:22.050 All of this is completely inconceivable without culture. 00:01:23.042 --> 00:01:25.562 And certain cultures develop, 00:01:25.562 --> 00:01:28.602 that are different around the world. 00:01:28.602 --> 00:01:36.602 In this respect, one could say that 00:01:36.602 --> 00:01:39.722 by continuing on from earlier, 00:01:39.722 --> 00:01:43.522 we shape everyday life, we include 00:01:43.522 --> 00:01:45.902 people with profound intellectual and multiple disabilities 00:01:45.902 --> 00:01:51.050 into a very long cultural tradition 00:01:51.050 --> 00:01:54.170 and allow them to participate in the cultural heritage of language, 00:01:54.170 --> 00:01:58.070 hygiene, medicine, literature, 00:01:58.070 --> 00:02:00.530 music, 00:02:00.530 --> 00:02:02.090 if it succeeds. 00:02:02.090 --> 00:02:05.190 If we now take a closer look at culture 00:02:05.190 --> 00:02:08.830 and think about what 00:02:08.830 --> 00:02:11.570 what cultural creators produce 00:02:11.570 --> 00:02:16.330 from dance, painting, music, 00:02:16.330 --> 00:02:20.150 theater, cinema, etc., etc., 00:02:20.150 --> 00:02:24.870 then I think 00:02:24.870 --> 00:02:29.710 although this is also 00:02:29.710 --> 00:02:33.010 only described in a shabby and brief manner, 00:02:33.010 --> 00:02:37.270 it is, in a sense, a human right 00:02:37.270 --> 00:02:42.610 to be able to participate in it. 00:02:43.906 --> 00:02:47.746 And I think we have, 00:02:47.746 --> 00:02:48.766 if I now 00:02:48.766 --> 00:02:52.226 my professional life, 00:02:52.226 --> 00:02:54.206 an enormous amount has been added. 00:02:54.206 --> 00:02:55.586 And things 00:02:55.586 --> 00:02:57.546 that you would never have thought of before 00:02:57.546 --> 00:02:59.726 are taken for granted today. 00:02:59.726 --> 00:03:03.646 And a lot has really happened. 00:03:03.646 --> 00:03:07.186 When I think of people with profound intellectual and multiple disabilities, 00:03:07.186 --> 00:03:10.986 not quite as much has happened yet. 00:03:16.450 --> 00:03:22.770 But since I myself am aware of the importance 00:03:22.770 --> 00:03:25.750 and the effect of art 00:03:25.750 --> 00:03:27.390 in the narrower and broader sense, 00:03:27.390 --> 00:03:30.350 or culture, you could say, something like that, 00:03:30.350 --> 00:03:33.250 I'm convinced, I mean, 00:03:33.250 --> 00:03:35.610 even though I don't really know yet 00:03:35.610 --> 00:03:38.730 what it means, in quotation marks, 00:03:39.070 --> 00:03:46.290 I don't know with you either, then ... 00:03:46.338 --> 00:03:48.158 It's just part of it. 00:03:48.158 --> 00:03:51.598 That sounds very ... 00:03:51.598 --> 00:03:56.478 but humans are essentially defined by culture. 00:03:56.858 --> 00:04:00.618 And by no means do all of them produce culture, 00:04:00.618 --> 00:04:01.938 but they participate in culture. 00:04:02.698 --> 00:04:11.118 How can people with profound intellectual and multiple disabilities be enabled to participate in culture? 00:04:11.618 --> 00:04:13.598 Now, of course, we can look at 00:04:13.598 --> 00:04:16.137 what what what already exists. 00:04:19.388 --> 00:04:22.998 I recently remembered the example. 00:04:22.998 --> 00:04:24.618 I had, 00:04:24.618 --> 00:04:28.518 this is getting a bit specific now, 00:04:28.518 --> 00:04:32.258 I had a very good poster 00:04:32.258 --> 00:04:35.338 of a picture by Yves Klein. 00:04:35.338 --> 00:04:39.178 Yves Klein was a relatively avant-garde artist 00:04:39.178 --> 00:04:42.954 in the 1950s and who became particularly 00:04:42.954 --> 00:04:45.154 by inventing a blue, 00:04:45.154 --> 00:04:47.614 a color blue, also became famous. 00:04:47.614 --> 00: 04:49.614 And he applied it completely flat, 00:04:49.614 --> 00:04:51.154 there was nothing depicted or anything, 00:04:51.154 --> 00:04:52.294 it was just a blue surface. 00:04:52.294 --> 00:04:54.574 But the blue was abysmal, 00:04:54.574 --> 00:04:55.654 there's no other way to describe it, 00:04: 55.654 --> 00:04:57.634 and rather dull blue, 00:04:57.634 --> 00:04:59.994 so it didn't reflect anything either. 00:04:59.994 --> 00:05:04.494 And I got a poster 00:05:04.494 --> 00:05:08.894 that also had this dull surface, which was amazing. 00:05:10.462 --> 00:05:13.622 And because I'm a bit of a stickler, 00:05:13.622 --> 00:05:16.822 we also put a 00:05:16.822 --> 00:05:18.502 restless child in front of it at some point, 00:05:18.502 --> 00:05:21.122 so that the poster 00:05:21.122 --> 00:05:24.502 filled the field of vision in front of him. 00:05:24.502 --> 00:05:26.562 And after a while, 00:05:26.562 --> 00:05:30.242 at least that's what we firmly believed we saw, 00:05:30.242 --> 00:05:32.102 the child became calmer. 00:05:32.302 --> 00:05:37.002 So. Now, of course, we can 00:05:37.002 --> 00:05:41.034 discuss it on the level of perception 00:05:41.034 --> 00:05:42.254 or we could say, 00:05:42.254 --> 00:05:45.414 it's the effect of art. 00:05:45.414 --> 00:05:47.874 I still don't know that. 00:05:47.874 --> 00:05:52.234 But I think 00:05:52.234 --> 00:05:54.774 if we take our claim seriously, 00:05:54.774 --> 00:05:55.754 then we have to say, 00:05:55.754 --> 00:05:59.994 why should a profound intellectual and multiple disabled person 00:05:59.994 --> 00:06:05.394 not also come into contact with cultural products 00:06:05.394 --> 00:06:07.554 and we look at 00:06:07.554 --> 00:06:09.974 whether it means anything to them or not. 00:06:11.490 --> 00:06:16.370 At the moment, for example, I'm trying 00:06:16.370 --> 00:06:25.090 to convince museums 00:06:25.090 --> 00:06:30.930 at least one robust object 00:06:30.930 --> 00:06:35.890 for holistic sensory exploration 00:06:35.890 --> 00:06:37.110 . 00:06:39.522 --> 00:06:40. 622 The ideal scenario would be 00:06:40.622 --> 00:06:43.882 for every art museum to have an area 00:06:43.882 --> 00:06:45.802 with a statue, for example, 00:06:45.802 --> 00:06:47.402 that would be easier than with pictures, 00:06:47.402 --> 00:06:49.042 you can hug them, 00:06:49.042 --> 00:06:51.162 you can touch it with your hands, 00:06:51.162 --> 00:06:52.902 you can even lick it, 00:06:52. 902 --> 00:06:54.922 you can smell them, 00:06:54.922 --> 00:06:56.342 so you can, 00:06:56.342 --> 00:06:57.382 as we would say, 00:06:57.382 --> 00:07:00.882 experience them with all your senses and no one cries out 00:07:00.882 --> 00:07:06.022 and the artist takes, 00:07:06.022 --> 00:07:08.302 which could also be seen as positive, 00:07:08.302 --> 00:07:13.394 takes the interaction between the artwork and the viewer, 00:07:13.394 --> 00:07:15.414 feelers, smellers, lickers 00:07:15.414 --> 00:07:20.994 as part of the artwork. 00:07:20.994 --> 00:07:24.734 That would then also be conceptual art. 00:07:24.734 --> 00:07:27.274 So, I know this is pretty weird. 00:07:27.274 --> 00:07:30.674 But a few people have already said 00:07:30.674 --> 00: 07:32.394 yes, it's something to think about. 00:07:32.394 --> 00:07:36.414 So I think there are possibilities. 00:07: 39.010 --> 00:07:42.830 Of course, this also applies to other areas of culture. 00:07:42.830 --> 00:07:45.350 We already see 00:07:45.350 --> 00:07: 49.550 more disabled people as actors, 00:07:49.550 --> 00:07:51.970 also in art productions, 00:07:51.970 --> 00:07:54.310 whether it was Schlingensief, 00:07:54.310 --> 00:07:57.270 who incorporated them into operas. 00:07:57.270 --> 00:08:02.130 There is a Belgian choreographer, 00:08:02.130 --> 00:08:03.170 who is very famous, 00:08:03.170 --> 00:08:06.770 Alain Platel, who was a colleague of ours. 00:08:06.946 --> 00:08:12.170 before he changed careers. 00:08:12.170 --> 00:08:14.430 And he clearly, 00:08:14.430 --> 00:08:15.750 he said so himself, 00:08:15.750 --> 00:08:20.690 the movements of disabled people 00:08:20. 690 --> 00:08:23.230 he incorporates into his choreography 00:08:23.230 --> 00:08:25.950 and sometimes even lets disabled people participate again. 00:08:25.950 --> 00:08:28.070 So something is happening. 00:08:28.070 --> 00:08:30.210 And the audience has accepted that too. 00:08:30.210 --> 00:08:31.710 So it's no longer a freak show. 00:08:31.710 --> 00:08:34.030 I think that's great. 00:08:34.722 --> 00:08:36.702 But of course, 00:08:36.702 --> 00:08:38.261 not everyone else 00:08:38.261 --> 00:08:39.942 is artistically active. 00:08:39.942 --> 00:08:43.402 Most people just want to be entertained, 00:08:43.402 --> 00:08:45.202 watch something, and so on. 00:08:45.362 --> 00:08:53.162 And I think that the people 00:08:53.162 --> 00:08:54.062 we're talking about 00:08:54.062 --> 00:08:55.462 aren't doing very well yet. 00:09:00.802 --> 00:09:05.802 We need to develop more imagination in that area. 00:09:05.802 --> 00:09:08.142 I already have some ideas, 00:09:08.142 --> 00:09:11.262 but to do that, I would also have to 00:09:11.262 --> 00:09:15.902 wake up our colleagues first. 00:09:15.902 --> 00:09:19.042 Because then we'll have the same problem again. 00:09:19.042 --> 00:09:19.802 I'll come back to 00:09:19.802 --> 00:09:20.882 a few specific examples later, 00:09:20.882 --> 00:09:21.822 if you'll allow me. 00:09:22.050 --> 00:09:27.462 When I walk through Berlin these days 00:09:27.462 --> 00:09:32.922 and see what is being offered on advertising columns, 00:09:32.922 --> 00:09:36.822 billboards, and brochures, 00:09:36.822 --> 00:09:38.742 what you can do here. 00:09:38.742 --> 00:09:40.882 Then it's mostly 00:09:40.882 --> 00:09:44.962 designed for tourists and other travelers 00:09:44.962 --> 00:09:47.782 and you would say that's culture. 00:09:47.782 --> 00:09:51.822 Museums and concerts and exhibitions 00:09:51.822 --> 00:09:53.842 and events and this and that and the other. 00:09:53.842 --> 00:09:57.662 And that's incredibly diverse. 00:09:59.970 --> 00:10:03.630 And of course we have the same thing again as before. 00:10:03.630 --> 00:10:06.690 Some people would never go there 00:10:06.690 --> 00:10:11.230 and others would only go there. 00:10:11.230 --> 00:10:15.690 And of course that also has a very strong social function, 00:10: 15.690 --> 00:10:17.790 even if you don't wear a sign. 00:10:17.790 --> 00:10:21.670 But going to the opera 00:10:21.670 --> 00:10:26.438 is also a distinguishing feature, 00:10:26.438 --> 00:10:27.658 a distinction, 00:10:27.658 --> 00:10:30.038 a deliberate distinction from those 00:10:30.038 --> 00:10:32.498 who go to some kind of musical 00:10:32.498 --> 00:10:34.978 or do something else. 00:10:34.978 --> 00:10:37.398 And going to an open-air concert 00:10:37.398 --> 00:10:39.178 is just something else. 00:10:39.178 --> 00:10:42.078 And going to the Archaeological Museum 00:10:42.078 --> 00:10:44.378 is probably more of a punishment for many, 00:10:44.378 --> 00:10:47.078 but for a few, it's pure bliss. 00:10:47.078 --> 00:10:49.638 And there, too, I think again, 00:10:49.638 --> 00:10:53.818 we should look as openly as possible 00:10:54.722 --> 00:10:57.142 at our own socialization, 00:10:57.142 --> 00:10:59.282 i.e. cultural socialization, 00:10:59.282 --> 00:11:05.502 and better assess 00:11:05.502 --> 00:11:14.614 whether contemporary opera 00: 11:14.614 --> 00:11:17.634 or Helene Fischer or whatever. 00:11:17.634 --> 00:11:19.874 And that's not 00:11:19.874 --> 00:11:22.274 well, to me it's too trivialized, 00:11:22.274 --> 00:11:22.754 when you say 00:11:22.754 --> 00:11:24.694 that tastes are just different, 00:11:24.694 --> 00:11:26.394 but you really have to look at 00:11:26.394 --> 00:11:30.754 what and how I introduce someone to it, 00:11:30.754 --> 00:11:34.074 so that they have the ability to differentiate 00:11:34.074 --> 00:11:37.734 and make decisions. 00:11:37.734 --> 00:11:41.194 And that they also get something out of it. 00:11:41.194 --> 00:11:44.886 So now, apart from the fact that there are lots of people there 00:11:44.886 --> 00:11:45.926 and the lights are shining. 00:11:45.926 --> 00:11:47.286 That can be something, 00:11:47.286 --> 00: 11:49.186 but it's not everything. 00:11:49.806 --> 00:11:53.666 And I would like 00:11:53.666 --> 00:11:57.486 that we or us, 00:11:57.486 --> 00:11:58.986 now I have to say this, 00:11:58.986 --> 00:12:01.146 the younger colleagues, 00:12:01.146 --> 00:12:04.926 that they are more imaginative and courageous. 00:12:10.626 --> 00:12:11.946 When you say 00:12:11.946 --> 00:12:14.146 you're going to a concert, 00:12:14,146 - -> 00:12:16,526 whatever kind it may be, 00:12:17.026 --> 00:12:20.866 wouldn't the person 00:12:20.866 --> 00:12:23.826 we take with us or go with 00:12:23.826 --> 00:12:27.306 not also bring their own experiences 00:12:27.306 --> 00:12:29.106 into it somehow? 00:12:29.106 --> 00:12:32.266 With other spaces too? 00:12:33.602 --> 00:12:37.346 My idea at the moment is 00:12:37.346 --> 00:12:40.778 that we should take people with profound intellectual and multiple disabilities 00:12:40.778 --> 00:12:43.998 to a beautiful empty church, 0 0:12:43.998 --> 00:12:45.118 that's still the place 00: 12:45.118 --> 00:12:46.538 where you can best go in, 00:12:46.538 --> 00:12:51.698 and let out some screams there. 00:12:51.698 --> 00:12:54.998 Incidentally, they can certainly 00:12:54.998 --> 00:12:56.398 also be praise of God. 00:12:56.398 --> 00:12:58.398 But listen, 00:12:58.398 --> 00:13:00.958 what happens to our voice there, 00:13:00.958 --> 00:13:04.098 how it suddenly sounds and carries completely differently, 00:13:04.098 --> 00:13:07.898 I think that has a lot to do with music. 00:13:08.674 --> 00:13:13.394 So music in the room and not just from one corner, 00:13:13.394 --> 00:13:15.434 from some speaker. 00:13:15.434 --> 00:13:22.954 Or so that the supervisory staff 00:13:22.954 --> 00:13:25.434 doesn't have a heart attack, 00:13:25.434 --> 00:13:28.134 I noticed 00:13:28.134 --> 00:13:31.074 we could actually use art 00:13:31.074 --> 00:13:34.294 in public spaces. 00:13:34.294 --> 00:13:38.014 So if no one minds, 00:13:38.466 --> 00:13:40.046 that's drastic, 00:13:40.046 --> 00:13:41.606 if dogs pee on it 00:13:41.606 --> 00:13:45.906 and there's no sign saying “do not touch,” 00:13:45.906 --> 00:13:49.566 why don't we really take advantage of them 00:13:49.566 --> 00:13:54.786 and let people experience 00:13:54.786 --> 00:13:56.606 how metal feels, 00:13:56.606 --> 00:14:00.786 what a rough surface is and what a very smooth surface is 00:14:00.786 --> 00:14:03.266 and how big it is 00:14:03.266 --> 00:14:07.846 and there was so much to experience. 00:14:08.642 --> 00:14:12.402 And also in comparison to living people 00:14:12.402 --> 00:14:13.302 you show a statue, 00:14:13.302 --> 00:14:14.302 00:14:13.302 --> 00:14:16.442 what is different and what is similar and what is the same. 00:14:16.442 --> 00:14:19.682 So there is so much. 00:14:19.682 --> 00:14:21.282 And I had, 00:14:21.282 --> 00:14:24.162 when I was still working at the university, 00:14:24.162 --> 00:14:25.582 they put on an exhibition 00:14:25.582 --> 00:14:29.762 especially for people with profound intellectual and multiple disabilities 00: 14:29.762 --> 00:14:32.982 and the theme was the human body, 00:14:32.982 --> 00:14:34.882 because we assumed 00:14:34.882 --> 00:14:37.382 that everyone is somehow familiar with it and has experience with it. 00:14:37.922 --> 00:14:38.962 And I still remember 00:14:38.962 --> 00:14:40.962 so much joy, 00:14:40.962 --> 00:14:44.422 students provided works, 00:14:44.422 --> 00:14:45.642 but also a few artists, 00:14:45.642 --> 00:14:49.822 how much joy it brought, 00:14:49.822 --> 00:14:52.142 we were really surprised 00:14:52.142 --> 00:14:56.922 to be allowed to touch such a sandstone butt 00:14:56.922 --> 00:14:59.402 and leave our hand there. 00:14:59.402 --> 00:15:03.142 And we thought a lot 00:15:03.142 --> 00:15:04.602 thought about it with students. 00:15:06,242 - -> 00:15:07,722 That has to be a topic. 00:15:07.722 --> 00:15:12.022 So whether the curve feels particularly good somehow 00:15:12.022 --> 00:15:13.922 or whether they have already had experiences 00:15:13.922 --> 00:15:15.822 that you're not actually allowed to touch it 00:15:15.822 --> 00:15:18.902 and now suddenly no one says anything. 00:15:18.902 --> 00:15:22.842 That was quite amazing. 00:15:22. 842 --> 00:15:33.142 And that, I think, is how you could really 00:15:33.142 --> 00:15:35.722 introduce people to culture. 00:15:36.034 --> 00:15:38.574 So I see, you realize now, 00:15:38.574 --> 00:15:41.074 actually a big task, 00:15:41.074 --> 00:15:46.994 because in the long run, I believe 00:15:47.734 --> 00:15:53.114 that dealing with cultural assets, 00:15:53.114 --> 00:15:56.714 regardless of their nature, 00:15:56.714 --> 00:15:59.574 means a great deal to people as a whole 00:15:59.574 --> 00: 16:00:594 and meaning. 00:16:00:594 --> 00:16:02:614 And when you see 00:16:02:614 --> 00:16:08.222 that more people in Germany go to museums each year 00:16:08.222 --> 00:16:10.702 than to soccer stadiums, 00:16:10.702 --> 00:16:13.862 then that at least shows something. 00:16:13.862 --> 00:16:16.402 And why on earth shouldn't we participate in that? 00:16:16.903 --> 00:16:26.349 What are the consequences of people with profound intellectual and multiple disabilities participating in culture? 00:16:27.682 --> 00:16:32.502 I would, I can afford it now, 00:16:32.502 --> 00:16:33.822 I wouldn't say 00:16:33.822 --> 00:16:35.942 that's music education 00:16:35.942 --> 00:16:37.482 and that's art education, 00:16:37.482 --> 00:16:38.602 but I see it more broadly. 00:16:44.834 --> 00:16:45.654 Perhaps, 00:16:45.654 --> 00:16:51.294 if I relate that to everyday teaching, 00:16:51.294 --> 00:16:56.214 we should encourage our colleagues 00:16:56.214 --> 00:17:01.074 to focus not only on the important things, but also on the beautiful things 00:17:01.074 --> 00:17:05.174 . 00:17:10.690 --> 00:17:13.310 To gain experience with it, 00:17:13.310 --> 00:17:16.869 to come into contact with things 00:17:16.869 --> 00:17:21.630 that feel good, that look good, 00:17:22.270 --> 00:17:26.970 that may well cause confusion, 00:17:26.970 --> 00:17:29.650 because they represent a different reality. 00:17:29.650 --> 00:17:32.130 I think there's a lot that could be done there. 00:17:32.130 --> 00:17:34.290 Things with artworks 00:17:34.290 --> 00:17:35.890 in public spaces, for example, 00:17:37.218 --> 00:17:38.158 which I mentioned, 00:17:38.158 --> 00:17:40.038 which is of course a lot of work. 00:17:40.038 --> 00:17:43.338 You have to go out, you have to search beforehand, 00:17:43.338 --> 00:17:44.258 where can you find something like that. 00:17:44.258 --> 00:17:45.598 You'll be amazed 00:17:45.598 --> 00:17:48.518 that you've walked past something a hundred times 00:17:48.518 --> 00:17:50.578 you've never seen. 00:17:50.578 --> 00:17:52.418 And of course you have to 00:17:52.418 --> 00:17:54.538 prepare yourself somehow, 00:17:54.538 --> 00:17:55.598 so that you know 00:17:55.598 --> 00:17:57.078 what it's all about. 00:17:57.078 --> 00:18:02.838 But for me, it's not about any 00:18:05.730 --> 00:18:09.230 art-historical consideration 00:18:09.230 --> 00:18:10.410 at the simplest level, 00:18:10.410 --> 00:18:14.270 but really at the most immediate encounter possible 00:18:14.270 --> 00:18:20.370 with the artwork or with an artistic activity. 00:18:20.370 --> 00:18:21.550 And of course, 00:18:21.550 --> 00:18:24.630 there are such great examples. 00:18:24.630 --> 00:18:25.990 I don't know, 00:18:25.990 --> 00:18:29.610 if you could perhaps 00:18:29.610 --> 00:18:35.466 There are two colleagues in the Ruhr area, 00:18:35.466 --> 00:18:37.986 the two colleagues, 00:18:37.986 --> 00:18:40.826 who have also captured this in films, 00:18:40.826 --> 00:18:43.666 who, together with the theater in Siegen, 00:18:43.666 --> 00:18:46.906 performed a kind of Magic Flute 00:18:46.906 --> 00:18:49.806 with disabled children. 00:18:49.806 --> 00:18:55.846 And without them pretending, 00:18:55.846 --> 00:19:00.682 but there were musicians who really, 00:19:00.682 --> 00:19:02.842 it wasn't easy for them either, 00:19:02.842 --> 00:19:07.002 suddenly responded to them and rhythms, 00:19:07.002 --> 00:19:09.522 which the children dictated through movement, 00:19:09.522 --> 00:19:11.742 also picked up on. 00:19:11.742 --> 00:19:17.422 So things like that are definitely possible. 00:19:20.482 --> 00:19:22.402 However, I have to say 00:19:22.402 --> 00:19:25.162 the children weren't that profoundly intellectual and multiply disabled. 00:19:25.162 --> 00:19:26.862 There was a colleague, 00:19:26.862 --> 00:19:29.442 a school principal, who said 00:19:29.442 --> 00:19:33.902 he would like to visit a museum with his mentally disabled children 00:19:33.902 --> 00:19:35.702 visit a museum, 00:19:35.702 --> 00:19:36.862 but he was afraid 00:19:36.862 --> 00: 19:39.742 that they will cause mischief there. 00:19:39.742 --> 00: 19:43.382 And whether you could do a trial exhibition 00:19:43.382 --> 00:19:46.490 at the school, so to speak, 00:19:46.490 --> 00:19:49.190 so they learn that you can do that and so on. 00:19:49.190 --> 00:19:50.850 And then I said, 00:19:50,850 00:19:50.850 --> 00:19:52.030 oh, you couldn't do that somehow 00:19:52.030 --> 00:19:52.970 and we'll do it differently. 00:19:52.970 --> 00:19:54.770 And then I spent 14 days 00:19:54.770 --> 00:19:58.190 producing art at school, 00:19:58.190 --> 00:19:58.790 if you will. 00:19:58.790 --> 00:20:00.450 I prepared a few things. 00:20:00.450 --> 00:20:01.250 And I said, 00:20:01.250 --> 00:20:04.410 I can do it and I'm not playing the teacher. 00:20:04.410 --> 00:20:08.390 But if others in the same room want to join in, okay. 00:20:08.390 --> 00:20:11.370 And then I'll also show 00:20:11.370 --> 00:20:13.690 how you can do one thing or another. 00:20:15.842 --> 00:20:17.682 I thought that was 00:20:17.682 --> 00:20:19.942 a really great experience for everyone. 00:20:19.942 --> 00:20:21.982 So now let's call it 00:20: 21.982 --> 00:20:25.242 very grandly called Artist in Residence. 00:20:25.242 --> 00:20:29.142 Just being able to be there when something 00:20:29.142 --> 00:20:31.822 what people later call art is created. 00:20:31.822 --> 00:20:34.462 That could be in any field. 00:20:34.462 --> 00:20:36.442 And without 00:20:36.442 --> 00:20:41.262 the participants being forced to 00:20:43.362 --> 00:20:44.922 do something similar, 00:20:44.922 --> 00:20:46.202 if they want to, yes, 00:20:46.202 --> 00:20:48.542 but I would also think it would be great 00:20:48.542 --> 00:20:53.482 if someone just watched for a day or two 00:20:53.482 --> 00:20:57.262 or smelling the wood shavings. 00:20:57.262 --> 00:21:05.162 So, an introduction to cultural activities, 00:21:05.162 --> 00:21:08.822 without the pressure 00:21:09.250 --> 00:21:11.670 of the school inspector or whatever, 00:21:11.670 --> 00:21:14.390 there has to be a product at the end. 00:21:16,432 - -> 00:21:24,402 How can people with profound intellectual and multiple disabilities become creative artists? 00:21:25.154 --> 00:21:27.054 Well, I already hinted that I don't think 00:21:27.054 --> 00:21:30.514 that shouldn't be the primary goal for me. 00:21:30.514 --> 00:21:35.494 Because cultural creators in our 00:21:35,494 - -> 00:21:37,794 society. 00:21:37.794 --> 00:21:42.134 And others are cultural participants. 00:21:43.674 --> 00:21:51.014 Then you have to think again about 00:21:54.914 --> 00:21:56.194 what that means. 00:21:56.194 --> 00:21:56.834 I don't know 00:21:56.834 --> 00:22:00.054 if the performance artist 00: 22:00.054 --> 00:22:01.754 Abramovich. 00:22:01.754 --> 00:22:05.714 She's been in the news a lot lately. 00:22:05.714 --> 00:22:07.254 That is, someone 00:22:07.254 --> 00:22:12.014 who might perform for a day 00:22:12.014 --> 00:22:14.914 and do nothing, 00:22:14.914 --> 00:22:17.314 allowing herself to be looked at. 00:22:17.314 --> 00:22:19.774 She even let herself be touched. 00:22:19.774 --> 00:22:24.034 And we call that art. 00:22:26.146 --> 00:22:28.286 Now, of course, one could say 00:22:28.286 --> 00:22:29.986 you can, you may, 00:22:29.986 --> 00:22:31.226 because then it will come. 00:22: 31.226 --> 00:22:32.066 Now you could say, 00:22:32.066 --> 00:22:35.726 we employ a profound intellectual and multiply disabled person, 00:22:35.726 --> 00:22:37.986 unless they clearly object, 00:22:37.986 --> 00:22:41.446 in front of a white wall and say, 00:22:41.446 --> 00:22:44.066 this is a performance. 00:22:44.066 --> 00:22:45.986 And anyone who walks by, 00:22:45.986 --> 00:22:48.746 sees it, feels provoked, 00:22:49.326 --> 00:22:53.426 feels sorry for them, that could also be the case. 00:22:53.426 --> 00:22:55.846 Could we see if money is being thrown there? 00:22:55.846 --> 00:22:57.286 Could be. 00:22:58.266 --> 00:23:01.446 That would have, let's say, 00:23:01.446 --> 00:23:03.146 for an eccentric artist, 00:23:03.146 --> 00:23:04.986 that would definitely have its appeal. 00:23:04. 986 --> 00:23:07.386 But then, of course, there's the ethical question: 00:23:07.386 --> 00:23:08.746 Is that allowed? 00:23:08.746 --> 00:23:11.186 There is, 00:23:11.186 --> 00:23:13.026 I don't know too much about it, 00:23:13.026 --> 00:23:14.366 the Remini Project. 00:23:14.366 --> 00:23:19.126 There's a really 00:23:19.126 --> 00:23:22.066 very severely multiply disabled woman in a wheelchair participating. 00:23:23.074 --> 00:23:24.654 She's just standing on stage. 00:23:24.654 --> 00:23:26.174 And I assume, 00:23:26.174 --> 00:23:27.474 based on what I've read, 00:23:27.474 --> 00:23:33.094 that she is doing this voluntarily, willingly. 00:23:33.094 --> 00:23:37.054 So she is part of an artistic performance. 00:23:37.054 --> 00:23:40.194 00:23:37.054 --> 00:23:40.194 Without, let's say, 00:23:40.194 --> 00:23:43.274 artistic performance in the usual sense. 00:23:43.274 --> 00:23:44.994 So she doesn't paint, she doesn't sing. 00:23:44.994 --> 00:23:50.454 If you go to a contemporary opera, 00:23:50.454 --> 00:23:55.274 you might also think 00:23:55.274 --> 00:23:57.734 that someone could 00:23:57.734 --> 00:24:01.934 just scream in front of an audience 00:24:01.934 --> 00:24:05.834 in the spotlight. 00:24:05.834 --> 00:24:08.014 And I'm sure 00:24:08.014 --> 00:24:14.194 this audience would 00:24:14.194 --> 00:24:18.034 develop thoughts 00:24:18.034 --> 00:24:21.966 that would otherwise be discussed 00:24:21.966 --> 00:24:23.606 with contemporary art. 00:24:23.606 --> 00:24:27.606 And for me, it's still really unclear 00:24:27.606 --> 00:24:31.666 how far can you go, 00:24:31.666 --> 00:24:35.646 how could you ask for consent 00:24:35.646 --> 00:24:39.806 or rejection 00:24:39.806 --> 00:24:45.326 and could then also determine the extent of consent, 00:24:45.326 --> 00:24:49.506 So how can you 00:24:50.050 --> 00:24:51.090 How can you make that clear? 00:24:51.090 --> 00:24:52.830 I just don't know yet. 00:24:52.830 --> 00:24:53.950 I could imagine 00:24:53.950 --> 00:24:59.390 that someone who is profound intellectually and multiply disabled would say, 00:24:59.390 --> 00:25:01.110 in quotation marks, 00:25:01.110 --> 00:25:04.770 I'm going with you and I'm there with you 00:25:04.770 --> 00:25:06.150 and we have the bright light 00:25:06.150 --> 00:25:08.290 and people are clapping and it's beautiful. 00:25:08.290 --> 00:25:13.270 But whether that's really what 00:25:13.270 --> 00:25:15.510 what consent means, 00:25:15.510 --> 00:25:17.690 I don't know. 00:25:20.482 --> 00:25:26.862 I once had an object and I very much regret 00:25:26.862 --> 00:25:29.482 that I didn't say, 00:25:29.482 --> 00:25:31.982 how much it would cost, I want it. 00:25:31.982 --> 00:25:37.122 It was a stone, completely flat, 00:25:37.122 --> 00:25:39.442 maybe as big as a hand, 00:25:39.442 --> 00:25:44.622 kind of oval, and it was polished really smooth, 00:25:44.622 --> 00:25:47.002 nothing else. 00:25:47.002 --> 00:25:53.266 And it looked very beautiful, and it had been 00:25:53.266 --> 00:26:00.106 made or worked on by a man in a very long process. 00:26:00.106 --> 00:26:01.666 So he always did a little bit, 00:26:01.666 --> 00:26:04.086 he couldn't do any more 00:26:04.086 --> 00:26:06.226 with different sandpaper, 00:26:06.226 --> 00:26:07.406 which became finer and finer, 00:26:07.406 --> 00:26:09.626 giving it this smooth surface. 00:26:09.626 --> 00:26:13.986 Most people would probably say 00:26:13.986 --> 00:26:16.586 that was a stereotypical movement. 00:26:16.586 --> 00:26:19.866 But it was a very beautiful object. 00:26:21.442 --> 00:26:27.422 And then later, in the Louvre, I saw fish 00:26:27.422 --> 00:26:30.202 3000 years old, from Africa, 00:26:30.202 --> 00:26:32.922 which looked remarkably similar. 00:26:32.922 --> 00:26:39.182 And there, of course, they were presented appropriately. 00:26:39.182 --> 00:26:43.262 And I think 00:26:43.262 --> 00:26:50.882 that someone has created something with a great deal of intensity, 00:26:51.746 --> 00:26:54.306 which, at least for some, gives the impression 00:26:54.306 --> 00:26:56.826 great beauty and harmony. 00:26:56.826 --> 00:27:00.446 Whether that already defines the artist, 00:27:00.446 --> 00:27:02.026 I don't know. 00:27:02.026 --> 00:27:04.866 In any case, I would have liked to have had the product. 00:27:05.634 --> 00:27:09.206 Of course, you can then again 00:27:09.206 --> 00:27:11.586 say on the other hand that 00:27:12.130 --> 00:27:17.526 such singular objects are created, 00:27:17.526 --> 00:27:21.446 these could be splashes of color somewhere or 00:27:21.922 --> 00:27:23.822 perhaps also a composition 00:27:23.822 --> 00:27:26.902 created using a digital keyboard. 00:27:26.902 --> 00:27:28.162 There's a lot you can do there too, 00:27:28.162 --> 00:27:31.082 there are already possibilities and people 00:27:31.082 --> 00:27:32.002 who are doing something there. 00:27:36.418 --> 00:27:39.458 Whether it's already art is debatable, 00:27:39.458 --> 00:27:43.018 but it's definitely a cultural activity, 00:27:43.018 --> 00:27:44.378 that seems to me to be beyond doubt. 00:27:44.378 --> 00:27:47.238 And there, I think, 00:27:47.238 --> 00:27:51.198 we should also encourage our colleagues in higher education 00:27:51.198 --> 00:27:53.478 and in technical colleges and so on, I think, 00:27:53.478 --> 00:27:57.858 we should also encourage our colleagues in higher education, 00:27:57.858 --> 00:28:01.978 support them, and let ideas sprout.